Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

 

Intro & Disclaimer

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk! Is a digital space for students at Ä¢¹½´«Ã½ experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of Ä¢¹½´«Ã½, Ä¢¹½´«Ã½ Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on , and .

Miguel: Hello, everyone and welcome to a brand new episode of Let’s Talk! All Access. Today on this very special episode, I am here with two of my friends who are participating in the Ability IT program with me. We are here to talk about our experience in the program. So, we have Amani and Todd, would you both like to introduce yourselves and let the listeners know what motivated you to apply to Ability IT?

Amani: Hi, my name’s Amani. Before entering the program, I had started studying for the CompTIA A plus certificates. I was already interested in a career in cybersecurity. But, I didn’t have a background in IT. So, I enrolled in an online class and then did a internship at a local tech recycling organization, “Free Geek”. I was working in their reuse and refurbishment department. Refurbishing laptops and desktops since that was a really good experience. Then I just happened to hear about the AbilIT program through Instagram, actually, while I was looking at college programs that I could apply to. So, I applied and was really happy when I found out that I was accepted.

Miguel: How about you, Todd? 

Todd: Like Amani, I also volunteered at Free Geek when I first moved to Portland. I’ve always been into computer stuff fixing hardware and some software issues and going through threads in Reddit and troubleshooting my own things. An interest in IT in general. Then, last year was December of 2024, I broke my ankle and after I got outta the hospital, and was recuperating, I was looking through jobs related to people who have disabilities. ‘Cause my background is in culinary and I could not do that with a broken ankle. So, I was looking through Portland Resources to find any kind of employment with people who have disabilities. That’s where I found out about Ability and Relay resources. I’m glad I got picked for it. This was the thing on my list for this year.

Miguel: That’s awesome! I should probably share with the listeners why I joined the program. For some of the listeners that know what I do, for others that don’t, I’ve done accessibility testing. But, I’ve always been interested in like learning how the interiors of computers work. So, one of the aspects that I really wanted to learn was like all of the different aspects of learning how to computer is put together, different aspects you can add, like in regards to learning how to add like extra hard drives or adding specific specs to your computer to make it work faster. I think that’s super fascinating, so I learned about the AbilIT program; I had an email sent to our Ä¢¹½´«Ã½ casual student list or employees list. I was like, “oh, this seems cool!”. So, I went on the website and I applied. I always love learning. So, that’s one of my good skills is I love to learn. So, when I applied, I’m like this could be a good idea for me to learn and see what opportunities can be out there. I knew some technicians in the field before and I was always curious of all the stuff that they did and setting up computers. Especially, when I worked for the community college, when they set up all of our office space, I was always intrigued of, “oh, how does this work?”, and how do you guys put in all the cables through the walls and stuff. So, that was my curiosity of why I ended up joining the program. I know we’re all studying CompTIA for A plus certifications. What was your experience in the first week of the program? Were you guys like intimidated? Not sure? 

Starting The Program

Todd: Overwhelming. It was a lot. I think once I saw the whole Comp TIA 90 question quiz and all of the things, that I’ve never seen anything about, described; I know I was kind of in a new world and had to plan accordingly.

Amani: For me, personally, I was excited, but a little nervous about all the material that I was going to be learning. Since I’ve never worked in the field and I just started studying IT in 2025. I knew that a lot of the material would be new to me, so that just made me a little bit nervous. But, I was really excited.Ìý

Miguel: I would probably say the same sentiment here. Because, I was really nervous and I’m like, “okay, now I need to figure out what’s my plan of action to complete this IT program.”. Because, I also felt very overwhelmed in learning the materials. For the people that want to learn IT; I know you guys talked about like Reddit posts and looking stuff up online, I think that helped a lot at the very beginning just to understand the material. There’s a YouTuber called, “Burning Ice Tech” and they really do really well explaining down the sections. Just being able to have it be repetitive, because that’s the way I learn. I don’t know about you guys, but repetition of listening to info, and having it hands on, is very helpful; at least for me. So, what do you guys think of that?

Todd: I like “Burning Tech”. I saw him too. I was just trying to scan the information as many times over and over again, even if it didn’t make a whole lot of sense and kind of just get that burned into my memory. But, he and a couple other YouTubers, I’ve been scouring YouTube for other people explaining A+, and tech in general. When there’s a human interaction, like a human description, metaphors, or examples they can use, it kind of helps me a lot with getting that information in my head because it gives it a real world application instead of just reading a phone book or an encyclopedia and trying to imagine that all that’s gonna be photo printed in my brain. It’s good to hear it from another person who can kind of describe why it exists.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. I share Miguel’s feelings about getting hands-on experience. That’s why I looked for an internship, because I was learning online and doing a lot of reading of my textbook, but I just knew that I really needed to be able to apply what I was learning in real time so that I could retain the information.

Miguel: Yeah, those are really good points. Textbooks can only do so much! Especially in the IT field. Having that internship experience is definitely more helpful. So, like maybe one day we can all go to the “Geek Squad” and play with the cables and see if they’ll let us take some computers apart or put ’em together. I think that would be fun! 

Todd: Mm-hmm. “Free geek”.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah. Do you have any advice for any people that wanna start in the IT field?

Todd: Clear your docket, have time on your hand. Because, it’s a lot depending on what your own background is. It’s more than I thought.Ìý

Amani: For me, I would tell someone, who is interested in getting started in IT, to do a lot of reading. That is one piece of advice that I got from someone in the field is just to read and just consume the information any way that you can. Because, practically, unless you’re building your own computer, or doing your own labs, or IT simulations online, you won’t have an opportunity to apply a lot of what you’re learning or really see everything that you’re learning about, unless you are in a relevant role. So, I was told to just read books, read articles or even find other people, study materials to read. Because, just having familiarity with the concepts will help a lot once you do get in a role and then you can be like, “oh, I haven’t seen this before. But, I know I recall this.”.Ìý

Todd: And having broken equipment you try to fix.

Miguel: Yes. The troubleshooting definitely helps. Do either of you two feel that you guys have learned any new tech skills so far? Like an, “aha!” Moment?

Amani: Yeah, I would say learning the different types of hardware that are part of any computer. Learning what their functions are, what their names are, how to replace them. Learning how to determine what computer components are compatible with a motherboard or battery. Troubleshooting networking and software, errors is another one. That’s a couple off the top of my mind.Ìý

Todd: I think the troubleshooting procedure, Is an important thing that’s going to serve me well. ‘Cause it helps me slow down and look at things methodically and not just jump around with my ADHD brain at whatever shiniest things popping out, or the most exciting thing I want to dig into. But, really slow down, take a step by step process that’s been tried and true to get the most efficient outcome, I guess.

Miguel: Yeah, for sure. I was like super fascinated when like, Mariah, my job coach was describing how the inside of a motherboard looks like. ‘Cause most of this is so visual. So, for me, just having those little moments of like description are just so fascinating to me. “Wow, is that really how tiny those little ports are?”, to where the internet cables go, or where the hard drive is. That is so fascinating! I always find that super interesting to learn about and just have the connections, like this is when they talk about a “Wi-Fi card” or the “sound card”, or just the different areas where you put in the cables.

Todd: There’s a lot crammed in there.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah, there’s so much in there! You’re like, “What? This all fits into one square rectangle place?” It’s really cool!

Todd: There’s some YouTube channels; it’s like a talk show of computer tech from the late nineties, like when Windows 95 just came out, and you see their hardware and all the stuff they have and it’s hilarious! All the legacy things they have. But, I think that’s a pretty good visual example. ‘Cause everything’s like shrunk like four times since then and it crammed way more things together. “Now you can send texts to somebody in another state!”

Miguel: “And, you don’t have to use a floppy disk drive!”

Todd: Yeah! All the things we take for granted and how much the hardware has accelerated since then.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah. Yesterday, I was at Free Geek. And I felt like; Apple, the early ones that was made in the eighties, they were selling one there for a hundred dollars. There was an Atari, they were selling an Atari there as well. That was super neat! I was like, “that sounds so cool! Thanks for the buttons that I can feel again!” 

Amani: Miguel, were you attending one of Free Geeks-

Miguel: The Popup?

Amani: ³Û±ð²¹³ó!Ìý

Miguel: Yeah, yeah! I was there yesterday. ³Û±ð²¹³ó!Ìý

Amani: Awesome! So, did you go home with anything? 

Miguel: No, I was just there. I was there with Mariah to ask them about all the different ADA cables and stuff like that. Yeah. Because I want them to feel some of them. But, we were gonna have to go back and they’re gonna pick some cables out, so I can feel all of them. But, it was super cool to feel all the technology and those big monitors, that they used to use. It’s so wild how like monitors are so small now compared to like what they used to be.Ìý

Todd: PRTs? ³Û±ð²¹³ó.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah!

Amani: I think that was a great idea to go to “Free Geek” and that is something that I would definitely recommend, to anyone who’s interested in getting into IT, is just checkout your local IT related businesses and see how you can get involved. Volunteering, if they offer internships, or if they can just show you like any IT components that they may just have on hand. I know “Free Geek” specifically has a lot of legacy devices, so if you wanna know like what a “Heat Sink” looks like, they have so many different models from a decade ago to now, and they have them in copper and different materials. So, I would definitely utilize the businesses in your community that can fill in some of the knowledge gaps for you.

Miguel: I love that idea. I can’t wait to ask them how those feel. ‘Cause, that’s like the next thing that I wanna learn. I wanna like feel the “heat sink” ones. Did you guys have any specific parts of the course you liked to learn about so far?

Todd: I like Maslow’s Hierarchy, the pyramid. That’s something I’ve gone through, I guess, through my life for the past few years; over and over again to find the most important things in your life and how you can self-actualize. But, first you have to keep a healthy balance of food and shelter. It’s something I look at when I’m really stressed out too, where it’s like, “all right, where am I at? Are enough of my other needs met before I can start studying for this?”.

Miguel: I feel you for sure. How about you, Amani? 

Amani: For me, I really appreciate the strong foundation that I’ve been given through the AbilIT program. Not only learning IT concepts, but being able to learn with others. I feel like, in the program, I’ve learned a lot from just talking about IT concepts that we’ve been learning with my peers and learning from them. Sometimes other people will have a good analogy of how to remember something and I found that really useful. I think the most difficult, part of the IT study for me was networking and virtualization. That took me a little bit more of dedicated study to really understand.

Miguel: So, I know that we spend a lot of time in the program, but shall we tell the listeners how our typical days look like for them to learn. So, in the morning we have Personal Development Classes and they talk about networking, connecting, resume, cover letters, all that good jazz. Then the afternoon we study for our CompTIA Certifications. So, sometimes we’re split up into groups and we take time to learn. Two days are in person and two days are remote, so we take time to learn about the different sections. At this point, a lot of us read all areas. Have you guys learned any new study techniques that have helped you guys so far?

Todd: I just crammed in through “Cybrary” and the CompTIA website, the quizzes. Take the quizzes, fail the quizzes, fail them again, and just keep- That’s how I learned the best is just by jumping on in and trying to apply what I know and then learning my mistakes.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. For me, I would say flashcards and taking practice questions has been the most helpful, and hands-on labs.Ìý

Miguel: The quizzes definitely helped me out. ‘Cause when I don’t understand a concept, I’m like, “let me go back and re-listen to the videos and see if I can understand where I missed specific concepts, like in the networking.”. I know that’s gonna be a hard one for me too when I get to that one. That’s one that I’m definitely gonna struggle on. So, probably just repetition and retaking the quizzes over, and over, and over again till it like finally makes sense or being able to understand. I did do a certificate on accessibility and web content, which is a little bit different. Because, it’s a lot more guidelines and basis. There is a lot of physical stuff that goes on to it, but I learned it more faster because that’s what I was doing for a job and so it was a little more helpful.

Amani: I have a question for you guys. What has been the most exciting skill that you’ve gained during the program? 

Skills Gained During The Program

Todd: Time management, I guess. Or, trying to recalibrate what I think about it. ‘Cause things seem to either take way longer or way less than I do, than I first imagined. Time management’s always an issue for me, especially when you’re balancing endless swaths of knowledge and project deadlines kinda on the same day.Ìý

Amani: Yeah, that’s a good answer. What about you, Miguel? 

Miguel: I would honestly agree with Todd; time management. Because, in my undergrad degree, I tend to procrastinate a lot. I think the one that helped me out was putting it into my calendar. Because, I literally open it up every single day and I’m like, “okay, it’s time to study!” or “we have class at this time.”. So, having those times in there along with like my work hours, it puts a little more into perspective where I need to allocate my time and energy. I think that’s something that’s important, at least for me. Moving forward, in my life, is actually putting all of my stuff on my calendar. Even though that’s gonna be super tedious, but it’s honestly been more helpful in the long run. ‘Cause then I can go into my calendar and see I gotta do this for Tuesday, and it has to be done. I can be very forgetful just because of all the stuff that I have going on. I sometimes try to balance a little too much and it doesn’t work, because I forget to write it all down and I will tend to forget certain things. So, I think that’s what that skill that I’ve personally have learned from this is to have a little more connections with like my Reminders App and calendar, and just sit a couple of minutes a day and get those completed and put into there. ‘Cause I think that’s what’s been working for me the most.

Amani: Yeah, I think the advantage of using a calendar like a time-based calendar is seeing, I actually don’t have time to do all the things that I thought that I wanted to do. It just keeps you realistic. How would you guys say the program prepares participants for real IT environments?

Miguel: For me, I believe the main thing that I’ve taken out of this is the connections that I’ve made with you guys. I really take those to heart. You guys are amazing people with like such amazing different backgrounds. Todd had done culinary and all sorts of things, same with you, Amani. I’ve definitely felt the connection with you guys and I am really grateful that I get to study alongside you guys. Regardless of where our IT jobs take us, both of you can know that I will always be here to write a recommendation letter, or sit as a reference and I can make that connection for you if there’s a specific job that I find. So, having those type of connections into the program– especially, because, for me, I can be very social but one of the things that I struggled with in my undergrad was not making a lot of friends at the end of my bachelor’s just because I did my online degree through an online program. So, that was pretty difficult to make those connections, so that’s one of the other reasons why I joined. ‘Cause I wanted to just make more friends and go out there again. It’s really hard as an adult. You can make work friends, but it’s just not the same as being able to have something to bond over our frustrations of infrastructure, of networking, or trying to understand a concept in building a computer, or whatever. Maybe your printers or the different sections. I think, that’s for me, what I take the most from this is the experience learning from you guys. Because, I always feel like I’m always learning something new and just being able to conceptualize it and ask you guys, “Hey, how did you guys understand this material?” or “what did you guys use?”. I always feel like I’m always learning. What about you guys?

Amani: I wanna say thank you for the sentiment that you expressed, that you really appreciate the relationships that you’ve built. I feel the exact same way. I really have enjoyed getting to know everyone that’s in our program. The more I get to learn about you guys, I’m just like, “you guys are so awesome!”. We have just so many talents and interests reflected in our cohort. But, I found that everyone has been so supportive and it’s just a really positive community of people. It is nice that we all share neurodivergence so that we have that in common. We just have an understanding of what it’s like to kind of navigate a workplace or a job when you have a disability or a neurodivergence. I feel that we’ve all given each other a lot of grace and understanding, but we are a really supportive group, so I really like that as well. I think the program prepares us for real IT environments, or the obvious answer is, by giving us IT skills. But, our IT instructor has spent a lot of time instructing us on is how to have the right mindset for working in an IT environment. How to really troubleshoot and find the next steps for what is like a plausible root cause and how to identify credible sources when you are looking for plausible reasons. So, I really appreciate that.Ìý

Todd: Yeah. They don’t guide you. They slightly guide you, but you’re on your own. Which is probably what it’s gonna be like really in the IT world is; instead of having a set instruction manual of what to do next, you’re gonna have to start diving in and doing as much research and learning about the problem as possible on your own, just based off of whatever, critical thinking skills you have.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. I would actually say, in my experience, that we get a lot of guidance. But, we don’t get the answers. So, for example, if you’re stuck on an IT problem and let’s say you have a laptop that you’ve connected to an external monitor. But, the monitor isn’t reflecting your laptop screen and if you ask someone in the program to help you, they won’t do it for you. They will tell you to Google it, and if you’re still having trouble, they may give you a hint of where to look, or help you talk through what could be the issue. But, they won’t give you the answers. In the program, they really try to cultivate a mindset of troubleshooting; “what do I know?”, “what information is lacking based on what is working?”, “What do I know about what the problem is not related to?”, and “where do I need to divert my attention?”, basically.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah, those are really good things that we definitely learned. I’ve always had to tell myself that whenever I have an issue with the computer, I’m like, “let’s be curious again”. We were kids and ask questions and try to find answers to it. So, I always feel like I’m the secret investigative journalist trying to figure out why is this not working and how can I fix this issue and save the day type of thing. I don’t know if that’s probably a silly analogy, but it’s one that I came up with! 

Todd: Especially when you know that it can be fixed. These things happen every day, so it’s more of a puzzle than a problem. You just kind of have to figure out the right way to approach it.Ìý

Miguel: Oh, yeah. For me, like having just the cheerful attitude. One of the things from Personal development that stuck with me from the very beginning; I don’t know if either of you two remember the video on the gal who talked about when people have the mindset of “I can’t”, and the people that say, “I can’t yet”. So, I think having the mindset of, “I don’t know this yet.”. “I don’t know this”, but adding the word “yet” to the end. Now that I’ve been through some of the sections in the program, I’m like, “I can’t do this yet.”. So, that’s definitely been helpful for me to just bring up those little positive moments of learning and having those connections with you guys. I feel like every time we be able to fix a puzzle or like, when we were trying to fix that station that wasn’t working at the beginning of the term. I thought it was just so much fun to figure it out and why it wasn’t working and looking up the numbers on the keyboard to see what type of keyboard it was and the mouse. I think it was just super neat and helpful for us to just have that hands-on experience for that.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. A growth mindset is definitely another mindset that we’ve really been pushed to adopt in this program.

Transferring Skills

Miguel: Do you guys feel that some of your other skills, that you’ve learned before, have transferred into here? Like maybe with the other participants, or just learning. I knew coming in that I’m a horrible note taker and I admit that; I’m like horrible! I write notes and then later I wanna read ’em, I’m like, “what was I trying to write? Makes no sense!”. But, I honestly, I’ve gotten better over the years. It used to be much worse! At least now they’re eligible that I can kind of remember what I was writing about. Don’t ask me about my middle school notes, ’cause those were atrocious. Those were definitely atrocious! So, learning, for me, it’s okay to not know the answers to everything. That’s been kind of hard because, “how am I gonna figure this out?” But, having that mindset, “if I try it these three other ways, there may be a solution that I may not have even thought about.”. So, that’s something that I’ve definitely grown on as a person after being in the program. I’ve learned these are my good skill sets of me being a good listener, and that can definitely help when people are in the field and they’re upset, because their computer’s broken and they can’t find their document, or whatever. What did you guys think? 

Todd: Well, I think my past experiences with working in kitchens, and also working on my car, where you’ve got an old piece of equipment and it breaks down, but you still have to figure out how it works. And, there could be hundreds of ways it went wrong, but there’s more than likely a usual culprit, or usual suspect.Ìý

Miguel: ³Û±ð²¹³ó.Ìý

Todd: So, I think once you figure out what the problem is and how it’s used, you can sort of zero in on the first steps you should take to resolving it. I don’t know if that makes sense.

Miguel: It totally does. What about you, Amani?

Amani: I don’t really have a cut and dry answer for that, actually. I did know about hardware and how to replace or update internal hardware components due to my refurbishment internship experience. But, I think a lot of the transferable skills that I brought to the program were more related to the professional development training than the IT training. Just building interpersonal relationships and creating an inclusive environment and community building; that was something that I knew that was important to me, as well as, the IT training part of the program. Because, this is the first time that I have been in an environment where I’m with other people that are also neurodivergent and have an opportunity to see them multiple days for weeks on end. It was important to me to build relationships with my fellow trainees. Because, I just value having people in my circle who can relate to navigating the world with a disability. That’s one of the reasons why I created a group chat for our cohort, so that we could just connect with each other outside of the classroom as well.

Miguel: Yeah, that’s a really good networking opportunity for us to keep connected. When you told me about the group chat, I’m like, “sweet! I’ll be part of it!”. So, I really appreciate you doing that for us. That was awesome! 

Todd: ³Û±ð²¹³ó.Ìý

Amani: I’m so thankful that both of you guys have joined and that it’s been used.

Todd: I’ll keep it up too if it’s still being used afterwards. ‘Cause, there’s a whole lot of certifications to get through.Ìý

Amani: Yes, it’s true.Ìý

Miguel: Oh, yeah! I personally, would love to do Networking and the Security Plus Certifications. I don’t know if you guys wanna do those, but like I was thinking of doing those as well.

Todd: I’m planning on it.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. The Network and Security Plus our part of the industry standard for someone who is in a cybersecurity role. So, that is definitely part of my goal as well.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah, that’s cool that we all have similar goals. Because, starting this, I was just really bummed out, ’cause I had just finished college and my bachelor’s degree and I had to apply to like more than a hundred jobs since last June. My technical abilities and accessibility testing were like helpful and maybe I should get an IT certification to match that or see if that would open up more doors for me in the long run. So, for me, understanding accessibility has, honestly, been helpful and frustrating at the same time.Ìý

Accessibility of Information

Amani: Can you go into a little bit, like what’s been helpful and what’s been frustrating for you? 

Miguel: Yeah, yeah, of course! One of the things that I, personally, find difficult is the amount of information thrown at us. Like on the videos, without having other forms of specific breakdown of information. By that, I mean if there was a video it would be cool if there was also a blocks of texts or maybe if there was like an audio component to it. So, for example, for me sometimes, like I don’t wanna listen to a video, or listen to it via audio, or be able to download it and add your notes into it as well. I think that would be really helpful. Not just for me personally, but I think like you guys would get a good understanding of it as well. Some of the stuff that’s been a little more frustrating for me is the access to certain web platforms. Unfortunately, in the accessibility field and in the universal design, sometimes they bring it in at the end of the project versus at the very beginning, like in the web development stage or development of the product. So, unfortunately instead of having those skills, and having readers installed or like proper HTMO, semantically labeled, and alternative texts put on pictures and stuff like that, or being able to navigate a website multiple ways. Like navigating through a search bar and there’s another way you can navigate it through specific blocks of text, or information gathering. Unfortunately, a lot of times, it’s thought of an afterthought, so that can be really frustrating. Because, the sad reality is even as a tester I can be like, “Hey, there’s all these issues.”, companies move very, very slow. So, change takes quite a few years. So, even having that skillset, I’ve learned to be more patient with myself and not get frustrated. But, sometimes it’s been really hard when something’s just accessible with the mouse and not the keyboard. I spend an exuberant amount of time just to try to be able to, access the same material and sometimes it’s really hard. For me, that’s what’s been the hardest.

Amani: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think, that is certainly frustrating and that there’s going to be organizations that, until they have someone with a specific disability that is not as prevalent; a lot of the times it takes that person, applying to their program or like really becoming part of their world, for them to adopt accessibility strategies that are inclusive for that particular disability. So, I definitely hear you that it’s frustrating, but I also wanna commend you for not just thinking, “oh, I can’t do it”, and not applying, or not trying. Cause that visibility is so important.

Miguel: Aw, thank you, Amani. I appreciate that. I won’t lie, there’s days that are like really difficult, sometimes. I’m like, “man, what did I get myself into? What was I thinking?”. But, I know that with me learning these skills, I know they’re gonna be helpful with other aspects of my life, like going into the IT field. I know when, in the field, if people have questions of, “how are you gonna check printers?”, or “how are you gonna check these cables?”. Then I can tell them, “I know the shape of the cable”, or “I know what they’re called”. I was able to memorize ’em and find in accommodated troubleshooting way, to learn those skills. I believe, and I know, that that’s gonna be helpful for me in the future. So, yeah. I know it’s hard, but it’s not anything that I can’t learn or have the opportunity to understand a little better.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. It’s always hard to be the first, But, you will be one of the people who will make this program more accessible for future blind applicants, and that’s a really significant thing.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah. I really feel that. My goal always is to not just help the blind, but everyone else. So, I hope you guys have felt a little more supported with me in the class. I hope I was able to transmit that throughout these last 13 weeks.Ìý

Todd: Yeah. I think you’ll be a great teacher after this too. Because, you perceive the information in a different way than we do. So, you’ll be able to explain it in a way that would be new to somebody else who maybe isn’t even vision impaired. But, you can understand it from different angles. So, I think you can convey that information in a different way.Ìý

Miguel: No, I think so. Because, if I can learn this networking concept, or I know these computer parts are super tiny. But, if I can learn that maybe I can help other people and troubleshoot their issues in the long run, regardless of them having visioned or non visioned. In school, they used to ask me like, “Hey, Miguel, can you help me with this visual task?”, I’m like, “oh, man. I don’t know.”. Because, I didn’t know that a lot of the buttons on the computers had like little pictures on them. I know like the recycle bins, the trash bin, or like the safe bins, like a little folder.

Amani: Oh, yeah! Like “icons”.Ìý

Miguel: Like little icons. So, I was trying to explain to them one time, “oh, you go to the save icon, do you?”, they’re like, “what’s the save icon?”. So, I’m like, “the little folder!”. I know I was probably laughing at it out, but I didn’t know that I was troubleshooting and helping them at the same time.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. Well, we’ve talked a little bit about what a typical day in the program looks like. But, one thing that we didn’t mention, that I just want to share with the listeners, is that towards the end of the program, you start meeting with a employment consultant that helps you find an entry level IT job. Well, it’s not necessarily entry level. It depends on your experience, your knowledge base, and what certifications you’ve earned. But, there is someone in the program, who’s part of the program staff, who helps you find a job and that, is really helpful as well.

Todd: Getting a year of support too is going to be good for me. Because, I’m not wrapping up everything right now. I’m going to take a couple months to recollect and then be able to use those resources in the future.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah. I know we have a year for this and we can all hold each other accountable or, help each other out in different ways after the program. So, I feel like that’s really important as well.

Future Plans in IT

Todd: Do you guys have any plans of any specific IT direction you want to go in? 

Amani: Cybersecurity, for me.

Miguel: I was thinking of applying for an IT job at Amazon. Just because I already worked there. I think that would be cool. But, then I asked the other day at work, I’m like, maybe I can ask them if they would allow me to like dabble in it, so I can get some experience? So, I hope they allow me like to fix devices or going through like some of their networking settings and be able to practice some of the skills we’re using. ‘ Cause, hopefully they allow me to, if not, that’s okay. But, even just having that experience, will help in the future. Honestly, I would love to be, part of like a technician team. I think that would be super fun. When I met a couple of technicians at my previous job, they were super kind, very helpful. So, I think I would love to start there and maybe doing like an analyst role later on. But, I think that would be super cool. Maybe do different gigs on helping others; setting up their network in nonprofits, or stuff like that. I think a lot of people could use that. Because, I thought it was like, “oh, setting up computers must not be that complicated.”. I was listening to the videos, I’m like, “oh, wow! This is a lot more complicated than I thought it was!”.Ìý

Amani: ³Û±ð²¹³ó.Ìý

Todd: Lot of networking stuff.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah! I was like, “wait, what? If you have more than multiple computers; okay, you gotta do all these different steps now. Okay! That’s good to know!”… What about you Todd? 

Todd: I’m not really sure yet. ‘Cause I could say “anything”, but I’d have to get my toes wet with it. I dunno, something with maintenance, maybe. Maybe it would be the infrastructure of networking. Like getting to know an area and how to maintain it and find the problems. Basic day-to-day functioning. Keeping the ship afloat sort of thing.

Amani: I think a helps desk role. Maybe a managed service provider where I would just have exposure to a lot of different types of IT tickets; is probably where I’d like to start.

Miguel: I think you would be really good at that.Ìý

Amani: Thank you.Ìý

Accommodations

Miguel: Yeah, I think you’d be excellent at that. For the accommodations, how do you guys feel about asking for accommodations? Are you guys hesitant? Are you guys nervous? 

Amani: That is a good question. The topic of heavy discussion in our program. We did learn about “AskJan .org”. That website has a lot of resources for an array of different disabilities and can help you decide a possible accommodations. It kind of lists accommodations by disability and has helpful advice on drafting accommodation request letters as well. Personally, I have requested work place accommodations before.

Miguel: I know some people were like, “no, I don’t wanna disclose my disability or ask for accommodations.”. I’ve asked for them before in my different work environments. For me, people have been very transparent; if they can or cannot offer an accommodation. But, one thing that I learned from my journalism teacher that I always carry is “question everything”. I know it’s a silly thing, but I feel like asking questions; the least they can say is “no”. So, asking never hurts. ‘Cause you just never know what they’ll say.Ìý

Amani: ³Û±ð²¹³ó!Ìý

Todd: You need to advocate for yourself sometimes. Because, it looks bad if you don’t. So, you might as well be up front.Ìý

Miguel: Right? Yeah, I’ve learned that experience of like always asking always asking, “what do I need?”, and it’s okay. And I always tell people this, “it’s okay to ask for accommodations. It’s okay to ask for what you need in a different format.”. That’s totally okay. One thing that I’ve learned to troubleshoot is; if this format doesn’t work for me this way, let me see if I can figure out a way to convert into a format where I can completely understand it. So, that’s one of the skills that I’ve learned. Honestly, it’s helped a lot. What do you guys feel has been the most rewarding thing about this experience?

Amani: Well, Miguel, before we move on I just had a thought about requesting accommodations? One helpful piece of advice that we heard in the program was, if you happen to start a role without having requested accommodations; by the time that you are getting to requesting an accommodation, you kind of have a feel for the norms and the expectations of your workplace. It is really helpful to not just say, ” oh, I have a disability and I’m struggling with this…”, but also pre plan solutions or have ideas, that you can present on just present solutions. Because, one thing that our instructors taught us was it’s better to present solutions to go with a problem than just presenting problems.

Todd: When I ask too, being clinically scatterbrained, it helps me get on my first step too. When I know what to ask it means that I’m organizing my own thoughts too. So, it helps me get my first step out of the way, in order to initiate whatever issue I’m having. If I can put it into words to communicate that to somebody else then I can help understand it myself.

Amani: Absolutely. And sometimes writing it out helps with that too.

Miguel: Yeah, that’s a big one. I tend to write stuff down before I say out loud. Sometimes I’m like, “does that sound okay to say out loud?”.Ìý

Amani: Yeah!

Miguel: Also like bouncing ideas off of each other and like learning what works, or what others have done in the past. Maybe that can be helpful as well.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. And finding a safe mentor within the workplace. If you find someone who has the role that you would like to be in one day, or has a skillset that you feel you could improve on, or even if they have a weakness that you also share, and if you feel that they are trustworthy. Approaching them to learn from them is always a good strategy; something else that was suggested to us in the program.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah. Fortunately, I’ve been really fortunate to have found good mentors throughout my life in different areas. They’ve been definitely super helpful in my learning experience, even though most of them are not blind themselves. But, they’ve been super helpful in just life and going through college and university. Just different aspects of my life, where I’ve definitely needed help. It’s been helpful having a mentor to be there, bounce ideas and sometimes you just need them to like get you going sometimes and you’re like, “okay, I got this. I can do this.”.Ìý

Amani: Yeah!

Todd: Good to be with like-minded individuals.Ìý

Miguel: For sure! Yeah! That’s so helpful in the long run for all of us! ‘Cause, when you have people that think similar towards you, you just feel empowered and feel like, “yeah, we can all do this and get this all done!”. I know the days where I am sometimes super burnt out and I’m like, “man, what am I doing?”, some days. Then I think of you guys and I’m like, okay, I can do this!”. You guys kinda gimme that spark.

Soft Skills

Amani: Yeah. One other thing, that we have been taught in this program, is that technical skills alone don’t just guarantee workplace success. Soft skills remain really important in any work environment, even if it’s IT, as well. What are some soft skills that you guys have learned about. Not for the first time, but just have practiced or learned something new about within this program? 

Miguel: I’m horrible keeping up to the LinkedIn. That’s just me. But, it was good just to go back and refresh my brain of; adding a proper headline, keeping up with their current jobs. I think that’s what’s been helpful. Having those conversations with people making sure that they’re professional. Keeping the professional tone. I always struggle with professional tone, but that’s something that like I’ll continue to work on.Ìý

Amani: For me, we did some exercises around time management and strategies on how to prioritize when you have multiple competing priorities, so that was really helpful. I don’t remember what the name of the concept is called. But, we looked at a diagram and there were priorities that were urgent, priorities that were not urgent, priorities that are important, and priorities that aren’t. So, I thought that that was helpful as well.

Todd: The soft skills; back to what I was saying before with advocating for yourself, communicating whatever’s going on, so a little snowball doesn’t turn into an avalanche. Communicate what you need, understand it yourself, and then not get like overwhelmed or really stressed when you’re getting diverted off of whatever path you imagined. So, communication is a good one. Just to kind of see what other people are thinking outside of your own head. If you can get the feedback from people that maybe you weren’t imagining you’d get is probably more helpful.

Miguel: Yeah. I’m always my worst critic. ‘Cause, I’m like, “oh, no! How dare you write it this way?”, or “how dare you think of this concept in this direction?”.

Todd: Yeah, what I was talking about with Amani earlier; some of the things that I was discounting about this program she got a lot of use out of. It’s good to get different perspectives on things. Reorient myself.Ìý

Amani: I’m just thinking about how teamwork and collaboration show up in IT Jobs. I feel that in most workplaces, if you have a good size team, you will be interacting with people with a different communication style, different thresholds of frustration and patience. We also did a lot of work in this program; practicing and thinking about different ways that you could respond to a supervisor or a colleague who is maybe difficult, or difficult to work with or, needs a lot of collaboration or handholding. Just how to be peaceful and efficient team member. So, I don’t know if you guys have any other thoughts about teamwork and collaboration in an IT job? 

Teamwork and Collaboration in IT

Miguel: I feel like it’s just important to learn how to work in a team, in general, regardless of what job you go into. But, yeah. I think it’s helpful like in an IT job. Depending on where you work, but you probably work with so many different types of people and backgrounds. I’m pretty sure it can be very stressful, especially trying to fix someone’s computer over the phone. Different issues that arise like that. Definitely having the skillset to understand how your coworkers work and maybe work alongside of them is definitely helpful.

Amani: Staying calm under pressure if you are in a support role and someone’s really frustrated and maybe yelling at you, or just being unnecessarily rude.

Miguel: Definitely. It’s good practice, honestly, to have that, and just learn. Learning the basic skills to help you keep yourself under control and keeping yourself professional in a neutral place. That’s helpful. I think that helped me out because I do horrible with conflict and I just wanna walk away sometimes. I’m like, “no, you can’t do that.”.

Todd: It takes practice 

Miguel: For sure. It definitely takes practice.Ìý

Todd: I used to have to kick people out of the Art Museum. This was a job I had over a decade ago. But, it was like, I do not know how to tell people to leave. How to command somebody to do something. But, you find your voice. Try to find the connection between a stranger and you and how you would wanna be talked to.

Amani: Yeah, I can see how that would be intimidating.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah. Tell us about that! 

Todd: The museum was closing, so it’d be the last 10 minutes and then everybody wants to stay till the last minute. “Okay, you guys, seriously, have to leave right now.”. So, yeah. It’s a little nerve wracking at first, then you get used to it.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah, I can be very soft-spoken sometimes. So, I’ve had to learn to speak up and use my outward voice more. Because I can be really quiet. I think I’m being loud, but I’m actually being very quiet. So, learning to speak up that’s helpful. I always feel so bad for people that work in any type of field that have to tell the public, “Hey, you guys need to go now! It’s closing!”.

Todd: Yeah. Get announcer voice. Be interesting, but not overly aggressive.

Amani: Well, Todd, when you were talking about having to kick people out of the museum. It reminded me of an article, I read last week, about a Florida hospital that had filed a lawsuit to evict a patient who refused to leave her room five months after being discharged. She just was like, “no, I live here now.”, and she just refused to leave. I don’t know if you guys saw that.Ìý

Todd: What? No! Five months is a long time. ³Û±ð²¹³ó.Ìý

Miguel: That is a lot! 

Amani: I don’t know if this is the same one. I was gonna say she was charged with trespassing and a judge ordered her to be removed from the premises. But, I’m not certain that’s the same article.

Miguel: Five months! That is a long time, wow! 

Amani: ³Û±ð²¹³ó!Ìý

Miguel: That is so wild! Like why would you wanna stay in the hospital? 

Todd: And get charged like $2,000 a day? 

Amani: I’m not sure what the patient’s situation was. If they were houseless, or maybe it would be the case where like their hospital stay was being covered by insurance, or it wouldn’t be them paying. But, yeah… 

Todd: When I was in the hospital, they let me know what my last day was! They’re like, unless you have $650 in cash every day we’re gonna help relocate you. Which they did. It was a good experience. But, that’s crazy. I can’t even imagine being able to have five months as an option!

Amani: Yeah. They coined a term called “The Hospital Squatter”.Ìý

Todd: You can sit here, there’s tv. I’m gonna hang out for a bit! People know my name… 

Amani: You don’t have to cook your own food! 

Miguel: ¸é¾±²µ³ó³Ù!Ìý

Todd: Yeah. I wish I could sometimes.

Miguel: I can’t believe five months! I had tonsil surgery and they’re like, “no, you’re out the same day, buddy!”. They like had me go through like anesthesia and I came off of the surgery and I remember they were trying to help me off the ER room and I’m just like, “where are we going?”

Todd: Insurance doesn’t want you there either, unless somebody’s advocating their heart out for you. Insurance doesn’t want you there.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah. I was there for maybe 45 minutes and then the gal was like, “how are you feeling?” I was just numbed, like, “I don’t even know…”. Apparently, I was talking about guide dogs. I don’t know why.Ìý

Todd: Under anesthesia.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah. Under anesthesia. Maybe that’s what kept me relaxed, was puppies!

Todd: Instant room change. You count to 10 and then all of a sudden I wake up and I’m somewhere else! 

Miguel: Yeah! It was so weird. I remember, “Oh, I’m not sleepy. How are they gonna- Oh!”.Ìý

Todd: Yeah. All of a sudden it’s three hours later.

Amani: Miguel, is there anything that we missed or that you want us to talk about more?

Miguel: Is there anything you wanna leave the listeners with? Any stories you guys wanna leave them with or any fun anecdotes, or any fun experiences?

Todd: Just get a bunch of broken equipment and do your best to see if you can fix it. See what you can and can’t do and you’ll learn 10 times more than you thought you could when you started it.Ìý

Miguel: Perfect! How about you, Amani? 

Amani: Yeah, I think Todd’s advice is really spot on. You could get broken equipment and try to fix it or just low cost refurbished equipment and use that to try to disassemble and assemble computers or radios even, just different devices. Just test out your troubleshooting skills. I think that is it just really getting hands-on experience is really important. Because, it is one thing to know a lot of information in your mind, but you have to be able to just get started and apply it. You can also use personal IT projects to build a portfolio that you can present to prospective employers if you don’t have formal IT work history, as well.

Miguel: That’s very insightful.Ìý

Amani: Do you guys have a message that you would give to someone who is unsure about entering the tech industry?

Todd: Dive on in. Start making mistakes, if they’re not too expensive.Ìý

Miguel: Don’t be afraid to ask for help and have fun throughout the, journey because it’s definitely one that you can enjoy if you really wanna have that experience.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. And I would say don’t give up too easily. IT is not something that’s even for people who have a knack for mechanical engineering, or understanding connections. it’s not easy. It takes work, takes studying, and it takes you pushing past frustration and sometimes taking a break when you need to and coming back to a problem. So, I would say if you’re committed to entering the tech industry, just go for it and don’t give up.

Miguel: All right then. Well, thanks, listeners, for joining us on another episode of Let’s Talk! All Access. Hope you all have a great day.

Outro & Credits

Asher: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, Ä¢¹½´«Ã½’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resource Department, and the Ä¢¹½´«Ã½ Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our , our Spotify channel, , and .Ìý

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

Podcast Introduction

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk!, is a digital space for students at Ä¢¹½´«Ã½ experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of Ä¢¹½´«Ã½ Ä¢¹½´«Ã½ Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on , and .

Miguel’s Introduction

Miguel: You’re listening to Let’s Talk! All Access, a podcast breaking down barriers in Higher Education. From Tech Tips to real stories, we are here to amplify voices in disability and inclusion. I am your host, Miguel Viveros Chavez, welcome to the show. We are so glad you are here with us today. Remember to check all our content on our home webpage: pcc.edu/dca, under “Let’s Talk! Podcast collective”. Let us dive in! So, first I’d like to talk about my early experiences in awareness. I grew up in a very small town in eastern Washington where resources were very limited and by the age of four, I knew that I was different from other kids. You know, other kids would be running around, playing, having so much fun. And I remember one of the stories that I wanna share with you guys. I was about four years old, and I remember I was going to preschool and I was a very inquisitive kid. I always was curious about learning and stuff like that. And one of my, my, my core memories that I remember is I threw my cane away in the garbage because. I realized as a 4-year-old kid that I wanted to be normal like everybody else. And I felt like if I threw it away that I would just be normal. My mom said, of course, and she took it out of the garbage. I think it was a realization as a little kid that, “Oh wow, I’m gonna be different than everybody else.” When I was a kid, it was really hard for me growing up. I was the only blind person in my family, so there wasn’t a lot of connection there with my other family members. It was a bit hard because I dealt with a lot of isolation and I grew up on my own and I think that kind of shapes my perspective of blindness philosophy. As a 4-year-old little boy, I remember feeling so conflicted on who I was as a person, because of that experience, because I felt different from everybody else. I remember also part of that experience, I had my braille letters, and I remember that the paraeducators would pull me aside and have me, work on my name with them while everybody else worked together in groups. That kind of made me feel isolated a little bit more than just sharing those experiences made me realize that my life was gonna be different than all of those kids. As a child, blindness was just part of my life. I was very quiet. I think I went through a stage, especially as a very small child, of wanting to know so many things and having the curiosity. Some of the aspects of that were, always wanted to ask questions and know the world. Unfortunately, I didn’t have that support at home and so that was really hard for me. Because, my parents were working all the time and not really part of my life or wanting to be there or answer questions. So, Dina, my brail teacher, who I got in third grade, she was a huge part of my life and I felt that I could always ask her questions, and it shaped my perspective now as an adult. Because, now I’m not afraid to be blind. I’m not afraid to show my realness, my frankness, my ability to share my experience with other people, my story and my value as a person. I’ve learned that blindness is part of my identity and it’s part of who I am as a human. It’s not everything to me because blindness is just a phase and it’s a lens of what I have to see things through, per se, but it has changed over the years. I was a timid kid who really struggled with just making those connections with people sometimes. Just because I wasn’t having those experiences as some of the other kids that I grew up with. We all grew up in a small town and so a lot of people were driving tractors, or moving hand lines, or doing things that were really just physical. I wasn’t really part of that. ‘Cause we don’t live in a farm. It was just a regular house where we lived in. I didn’t really have a lot of friends growing up. Like, I couldn’t say that I had blind people to hang out with or that I did stuff with my friends. Because, my parents were helicopter parents and that was a really difficult thing growing up, having that. I think now being more embracing with myself and who I am as a human. One of my earliest thoughts of being independent as a blind person. I was 13 years old and I remember the day, like if it was yesterday, and I’ll walk you guys through it. I was with Lori Williams, a orientation and mobility instructor, cane Travel Instructor for The Blind. I was in little town of Connell where I grew up and she took me out on an outing and I was in front of those groceries. They had a little outlet there, little grocery store called Leprechaun. People who are from Cornell in the area know what that store is. She told me, “Hey, Miguel, here’s $10, I want you to go inside and I want you to go to your left. There is people there, ask them you need help getting some bananas, getting a Coke, and you can grab something for yourself.” I remember being so scared and afraid that I was gonna do something wrong or get lost. I remember going into the store with my cane and standing in front of the door, hearing people go in and out. I went up to the counter and there was this older lady and she’s like, “hi honey, how’s it going? Do you need some help?”, and I told her, I remember my voice that was breaking at the time, “Hey, I was sent in to get some stuff. Can I please have some help? I need help finding a drink.”, and she’s like, “well, do you need help finding a soda? Do you need a can of soda or do you need a bottle of soda?”. This was just a person who was not even working there. It was just a nice patron and if they ever hear this story, I want to thank them for sharing that experience with me and being so kind and gentle. So, she went over and asked one of the people who was working, who did customer service. And this gentleman, I don’t remember his name, but I remember he grabbed my arm and he walked me across the store and he asked me, “Hey, what do you need?”. I was like, “oh, hi! I need some bananas, please. I need some bananas. And I also need a Coke or something?”, And he was like, “okay, what kind of coke do you want? Do you want a Diet Coke, or do you want a big bottle or a small bottle, or do you want a 64 ounce or a three, two ounce?”. That was my very first experience of independence. I had the $10 and I actually, we used to have these grade slips and I actually gave him the grade slip instead of the $10. He’s like, “oh, this is not the right thing.”, I’m like, “oh, sorry.”. So, I gave him the $10 bill, and then he helped me pack it up and he walked me to the door. I remember walking with my cane walking forward and exiting the store, and Lori was like, ” Good job! You did a really great job!” I handed her back her change, her bananas and the Coke. I think I had gotten a Sprite, or something as a seventh grader. But, I shared this story because that was like my first experience really going into a store and I was so scared and who would’ve ever thought that years later, I would be doing that on my own and not being afraid to go ask for help and having these things like IRA Access, which is a visual interpreting service that I can call. With my phone, they can describe what’s going on around you using your camera. I share this experience with you guys because it taught me to not be afraid to ask for help. It was in a way where I learned as a kid that I could do anything that I could set my mind to. Having Lori there to explain and just be so patient and kind with me as I was such a young kid; I am so grateful for her and for having that experience of going into a store by myself at 13 for the very first time. I can’t be more than thankful and I take that experience for me forever. There’s so many misconceptions people have about blindness. One of them is that people who are blind are great musicians, yes. There’s a lot of blind people who are musicians that have really great talents. Like for example, I can sing and I can play piano. I grew up in a town where like I ended up having to be in the choir and drama and stuff like that. But, that wasn’t, I didn’t want that to be part of my identity forever. I wanted to learn and to grow and that to be part of my life. But, I didn’t want it to be everything that I was part of. So, as a teenager, I used to lead worship in church and I would play piano and help my uncle’s church and that was a beautiful experience for me growing up. I honestly, don’t regret it. It was something that I learned so much, but it also was really hard on me. Because, I was a teenager and I was growing up and I wanted to have more experience and live a little more. Have the experience of being out with other teenagers and just having friends and going and bowling and just doing teenage things that I didn’t get to do. I helped out a lot in drama and in other aspects of my life where track and field were also very important to me. Each time I go into an Uber ride and ask for help or tell them about my life and they’re like, “oh, you’re so inspiring. You do all of these things! You do dragon boating and you also work two jobs and have time to go out to movies! You’re such an inspiration to even getting outta your house!”. People mean well, but that can be very insulting sometimes. Because, we’re people. Listeners, we’re people just like everybody else and we have goals and needs and wants. We work so hard just like everybody else and, as blind people who have limited vision, we do have dreams and goals. Like we want to be treated like everybody else, because we wanna just have regular lives. We wanna work and pay taxes and have our own places to live. So, when you see a blind person, yes, they can inspire you to do better in your life and be a better person, and to be more proactive, that is great. I just do everything I need to do because it’s part of my life and it’s part of who I am as a person, and it’s just my identity. It’s just to be who I am regardless of what flaws and issues that I may or may not have, or what I may bring to the table. I just share because I want to show people that blind people can do dragon boating, we can have a job or two, and we can live on our own and have our own lives and cook and clean. We may do ’em a little bit differently. Use our hands to touch surfaces to make sure that they’re clean. Not when it’s hot, but we may use different tools like talking thermometers and braille measuring cups and measuring spoons and things of that nature to gauge stuff. My tips and advice is, even with the deaf culture, if there’s an interpreter signing, please look at the person not at the interpreter. The person that’s next to us, they’re not our interpreters. We have our own voice, we have our own opinions, we have our own thoughts and feelings, and just talking to other people instead of asking us what we need is kind of infuriating and it’s very insulting. Because, as people we’re allowed to feel what we do and we’re allowed to ask for what we need. Get this experience all the time when I go to restaurants with friends, because they wanna talk to them and my friends will automatically out loud and say, “Hey, talk to Miguel. Have a conversation with Miguel! Miguel’s amazing. Go have a conversation with him. Ask him what he wants to drink, or ask him if he wants a sauce on a steak. Or ask him if he wants more salt, or more pepper, or some limes.” Just have those conversations. Yes, they’re gonna be uncomfortable. Yes, having those conversations are gonna be uncomfortable and you may not know what to say or how to feel. But, I’ve been asked the same questions over and over and over again all my life. So, not everyone may have the same capacity to answer all of these questions, but know that, we are there as people and please be more kind. My message that I wanna share is like, please be more kind and mindful, if you see someone with a friend introduce yourself to the blind person. Talk to them, have a conversation with them because we can all learn from each other. It’ll be much more a pleasant conversation than, talking to the other person for them, because that is just not nice. It’s not courteous and it is not a really good way to start a conversation with somebody, especially if it’s your first time. It doesn’t look good on you as the person that’s doing it. So, my humble advice is just be yourself. Talk to them, because you never know what you’re gonna learn and you may find a new friend. A lot of things are not physically accessible in the US. I think other countries beat us in access issues. There’s a lot of places, that have ramps and have the basic ADA push buttons across the street that are audible and things of those natures. But, I think that we need to make sure that everyone can access all of these things. All of the different aspects; aP for example, I would love to see more braille maps and tactile maps of buildings just to know, where am I at? Where am I going? I know technology is great and that technology can tell us to an extent. But, also sometimes I just want to have a physical, tangible thing that I can feel with my hands to know where I’m located or where I’m going. I think that’s really important having more braille signs, having real braille signs. There was a friend of mine who told me of a place in a hospital in New York City, where they had braille signs, but the signs in braille were in print. They were print dots. They were not real braille. So, having real braille signs is something that’s very important. Having large print and signs in multiple language, that’s also a really good thing as well. Just having the experience of if things were much more accessible, it would help everyone. I don’t think it would just help with the blind. Curb cuts help people in wheelchairs, but they also help people who have strollers, who have walkers. Just things of that nature that we can all do to leave a little grain of hope. One of my favorite memories that I have; I created the very first accessibility club at Clark College, and I wanted to make a space for all people with disabilities, for them to feel included and feel welcome. As the president, I created “2020 Visionaries” back in 2020. My experience with that was amazing. We had a really good advisor, Audrey Hagan, along with another coworker who I worked with. It was just really great to have those experiences with them. What made it inclusive is I opened it up to all people with disabilities. I opened it up to staff members for them to feel comfortable and have a place every single week to come in and talk about your struggles and the good things that were going on and what were the bad. It was just great to have even students who were not part of the disabled community, just be there, just so they could learn and be part of the community and be allies. It was just a beautiful experience that I will never forget for the rest of my life, being part of that creation and that establishment of a disability resource, club. That was something that I’ll never forget. I’ve learned that blindness is part of my identity. It’s part of who I am as a person and as a mixed minority of being a man of color of Hispanic descent, first generation college graduate who happens to be blind; it’s part of my identity. Because, a lot of Hispanic culture and Latino culture, people with disabilities are not really taken well or serious. A lot of people in Latino culture have this ” poor me” attitude, or “poor him”, or “poor her” because they may be in a wheelchair, or they may be blind, or Deaf, or have down syndrome, or whatever it may be. Part of my identity, as a blind person, is to showcase myself and showcase who I am as a person. With all my identities and all my aspects of life. I really enjoy sharing that with people, because it’s part of my life. Every single blind person is unique to who they are as people, and their stories are all different. None of us blind people have the same story. My relationship with blindness has changed so much over time. I think as an adult, I’ve been able to embrace it. I’m not afraid. I am much more confident in who I am as a person. I do not pity myself for being blind. It is just part of my life. I think I’ve had to cope and change so many things because as a blind person, I hate crowds. It’s just too loud for me to try to understand what is going on, and that’s okay. But, I’ve also have learned a lot about myself. When you’re blind or have other disabilities, not just blindness, you use up a lot of energy making sure everything is correct and in shape . There’s a lot of pre-planning that people don’t know about that happens in the background. I do it so easily that a lot of people are like, ” how do you get all these things done? How do you do so much?” I make a mental plan of what I wanna do, but I also have my secondary third and fourth plans just in case if one thing doesn’t go through I can make an exatory plan of what I need to finish and complete for that day. A lot of it takes energy, it takes so much energy out of me. I have to be really mindful of what I want to use that energy for. For example, I could use my energy going in an hour and a half to work, but is that really feasible energy and being exhausted all day? Or do I wanna take an Uber and not be exhausted using my energy to have to listen to carts moving around on Amazon or my current workplace? Do I want to use other skills and make sure that I’m actually doing my job correctly? It all depends on the human and all depends on people and how they choose to elaborate and do things, and that’s okay. That’s just my experience. It’s been helpful doing dragon boating and I’m actually starting coaching training, just to have a little more exercise and daily routine in my life. I’m really excited about that as well. But, I had to put myself out there and get myself together, most of the time, in order for me to make sure that I need to get done with what needs to happen throughout the day. This is my personal opinion; that if I wasn’t blind, I wouldn’t be grateful for all the things that I have. I’ve completed so much being blind and I think if I was sighted, I wouldn’t be grateful for the many things that I’ve done. If I was sighted I don’t think I would’ve moved to a city. I don’t think I’ve ever would’ve moved out of a small town. I think my life would’ve been completely different. I probably would’ve been married off by now. I probably would’ve, been working in the fields in the agriculture. Doing something completely different. I don’t think I would’ve gone through higher education. I think some of the things I think would be great. Being sighted would be great, like be able to drive everywhere. But, it’s chosen me. I’ve been able to learn from those experiences and that’s the beautiful thing about it is that I’m really patient with myself. I gauge my words, I gauge what I’m gonna say sometimes, and I gauge what I wanna learn. But, also I’m not afraid to tackle things head on and make sure that I have those type of experiences. Regardless, I’m like really proud of myself for making it as far as I have with sometimes not having the support of loved ones, and that’s been the hardest thing for me, as a blind person. Is not having the support and care from people who are supposed to be there for you. Everyone can be a leader. I think everyone has those potentials. A good leader listens, a great leader and advocate doesn’t advocate for just themselves, but advocates for all other people regardless of who they are. A good. Communicator is someone who’s willing to learn and learn from their experience, or my experience per se, and have the opportunity to share different viewpoints and be able to learn and change and grow. Sometimes you don’t need to lead. Sometimes you need to sit down and follow someone else and have them mentor you. So, for my life, I’ve had a lot of great mentors. For example, a couple years ago I met this amazing person at Ä¢¹½´«Ã½, Dr. Clifford Meeks and if you are a man of color who identifies. As a man who is BIPOC, I would recommend you signing up for the Men of Color Leadership Program. It was such an insightful program for me as a human being, and I loved learning so much about being there for our sisters of color and being there for women in general. I’m always learning and growing, and so I may not know everything. I can only speak, to my experience as a Hispanic blind man, I can’t speak to other experiences, and I recognize that, and I think that’s a huge issue in the advocacy worlds. A lot of people are complacent, and sometimes you cannot be complacent as an advocate. You have to learn, you gotta research, you gotta be uncomfortable in order for you to grow. When you’re uncomfortable in the most uncomfortable places, that is when you grow. That’s when you learn, and that’s when you can be more established as a human and as a person. I’m really open, in my story, I share my struggles. I share my good moments and my bad, because that’s the beautiful thing of podcasting a philosophy of blindness. If I don’t share the struggles that I have with you guys; for example, I have a lot of anxiety sometimes and it’s really hard for me sometimes to go to work, because I just get horrible anxiety. Sharing that with you guys, I’m not afraid to share my good moments and my bad moments. Because, especially today in how media is superficial and everybody wants to the perfect picture, or the perfect family, or the perfect portrait of oneself that’s not reality. Like we are humans and we’re flawed. Having that experience of sharing my experience with other people and not being afraid to show that is something that I personally love about myself. I struggle with anxiety and sometimes I do struggle with depression too and it’s really hard, because sometimes I don’t wanna go to Dragon Boat practice. I don’t wanna get up and be, “hey!”, all happy and cheery and, “yay, it’s great and it’s roses and rainbows!”. No, that’s not always the case. Some days I’m really low energy and I can be really tired. It’s not easy sometimes, but it also has taught me to be more resilient with myself. More patient, more kind, and to give myself more grace. That’s what I’ve learned in the last couple of years, especially with those bad moments, that we can face as humans and that I face every day. I think my purpose in blindness; it shows a lot of people that I’ve shown a lot of people through my life and how I carry myself in ways where blindness has changed my life forever. Has changed people’s lives. Because, they think his blindness as, “oh, this is such a tragedy!”, and such a negative connotation. But, when they see my life and ask questions and they see me running around putting podcasts together, advocating for justice, paddling on the river, working at night, and being tired. But, here he still shows up and goes to work every day and still has time for his friends and his loved ones. It’s not an easy task. But, it’s something that blindness has shaped my life for the better, because it’s made me not wanna be so fearful. A lot of times when I was very young, I was very fearful, and now I’m not afraid to go try something new. What do I got to lose trying something new? I can find a new hobby, I can make new friends and that’s something that I can carry with me; something new and a golden experience. I’m gonna go do training for the first time this year and I’m excited about that. I don’t know how it’s gonna go and I’m his very first blind person, he’s a little scared, but you know what? I’m gonna help him as much as I can and guide him so that he can have other blind clients too. I had the pleasure to interview my friend, justice, and here’s what he had to say on this topic.​Hello everybody and welcome to our very first episode of Let’s Talk! All Access. Today we will be interviewing Justice Chuckwell. Justice, welcome to this show. We’re so excited to have you here today.

Justice’s Introduction

Justice: Hello, viewers and listeners! I’m so happy to be here with Miguel.

Miguel: Thank you. And Justice, tell the listeners about yourself, like tell them your background.

Justice: Yeah, I’m simply a young blind man. Charming blind man, that’s how I describe myself. I have a bachelor’s degree, I am from Nigeria, I moved to the US, and I’m so happy to be part of this podcast.

Miguel: Tell the listeners, what was your journey to get to the US? You bring a unique perspective of coming from Nigeria into the US. As for my life. I was born here in the US from parents who immigrated, into the US themselves. But, tell us a little bit more about that experience and how was that like for you coming in to the US?

Justice: I’m a first generation immigrant as far as, immigration is concerned here in the United States. This means that I came all alone. I didn’t come with my parents, and my parents are not in America. So, as a first generation immigrant there was quite a lot of hurdles and challenges that I needed to encounter. Coming to America from Nigeria wasn’t quite an easy task, but it was something that required courage. I knew where I was headed, I knew what I wanted, I had my vision, I had my goal, and all these things spurred me to take on this risk of being here alone for the past how many years right now? I’m still happy that I’m here. I’m still happy that my values are still needed. That I’m being recognized and respected and, I am attending institutions where the need is greater for me to bring my, experience and stuff like that. So, it’s been a journey. But, I am still on it and I’m so happy that I am still on the journey. Because I can see the light at the end of the tunnel and that has been inspiring me to keep moving.

Miguel: You bring up some really good points, Justice. You had so much courage you had to do this alone to come from Nigeria into the US. What does blindness mean to you? Like, if you could break that down. How has blindness shaped you?

What Blindness Means to Justice

Justice: Blindness is my identity. I did a video on my own. So, just a little introduction. I have my own media. So, I do shoot videos of my life and stuff like that. My media is “OhMyEnchantingCastle”, one word. So I did a video, fairly recently, where I talked about conquering identity crisis. I see blindness as an identity, and in my video, I talked about me finding it when I was younger. Because I was told that blindness is not a good thing. So, we did both spiritual and medical consultations to see how we can get; by we, I mean my parents, my family, get rid of blindness, right? But, I realized at some point that blindness is my identity. I don’t have to fight it. I have to embrace it, and it’s been helping me. I’ve been getting stronger, I’m having more confidence ever since I realized that I needed to embrace my blindness. So, blindness to me is beyond what could be compared to having physical eyes or ability to see. But, it is an identity for me, and I have embraced it. Yeah.

Miguel: That’s awesome. Embracing blindness, is something that’s super important for listeners to learn and to know about. Especially people who are young; teenagers, young adults that are really starting off in life. Some people may not know what they wanna do with their lives, or what things they want to learn or where they want to go. Learning, embracing blindness is something we both share and have in common, you know? Tell us a little more, how you found your identity. Was it experiences in your teenage years or in the beginning of your young adult life that you’re like, “Hey, I wanna embrace this!”.

Justice: I think blindness as my identity is something that I have over time, reflected on and I have discovered that, fighting blindness for me is a waste of my time. I have quite a number of things, very important to do with my time. I also have come to terms that, with technology and, as you know, we keep having improvements. Blindness shouldn’t be much of a big deal. I also appreciate the fact that the earlier actually I embraced my blindness, the better for me. Because, identity crisis can lead to low self-esteem, can lead to lack of confidence and question who you are. Question if you are really at the right place. So, there’s a lot that comes with identity crisis. But, since I have embraced this blindness, I came to conclusion that the next thing for me is to secure my space in the society as a blind person. I don’t have to dismiss that anymore. Also there may be some challenges associated with blindness, but it’s still a strength, you know? And, I don’t have to dismiss that reality.

Experiences with Blindness Culture

Miguel: How does blindness culture look growing up for you?

Justice: Well, I think the evolution of blindness culture over the years is something very, I would say, remarkable. But, sometimes I ask myself, what exactly is going on in this 21st centuries? We still have lack of awareness of how blindness operate. But, I would say, typically, it has been evolving, in several ways. So, the evolution of the blindness culture is such that, people are now beginning to realize that it’s not all about sight. It’s not all about being able to see. People are now realizing that a blind person could do certain things that nobody would ever think they could have, in the past. People are now realizing that it is okay to be in relationship with a blind person. People are now realizing that blind persons are very, intelligent. I remember when I was in school, my classmates were stealing my answers. They were stealing my answers. Because I would be at the forefront, writing my exams and I use typewriter. So, the next persons behind me will be “giraffing” and stretches the neck forward. So, they will be on their seat, but they will stretch their neck to steal my answers.

Miguel: Wow.

Justice: Yeah, and people are now realizing that it’s just; okay, sometimes to be blind. But, I know that some society, they still have their bias about blindness. I’m hoping that belief would go with them and not be transferred to some elements or some individuals, in our generation. But, I think everything still depends on awareness creation and being creative in making those awareness.

Miguel: Yeah, you bring up a really good point. You know, ’cause nowadays, in social media, people can post about; they may be blind, but do X thing, or sports, or whatever they’re into. Show the world what things that they can do. But, you also bring up a valid point as well that society still has a lot of biases towards blind people in general. When people see certain blind people, they may see us as like, heroic or different because of whatever reasons. Or because we may participate in certain sports or be part of different activities or social groups or whatever it may be, you know? I think that part of society, of us being out in societies, some people will never understand. I’ve learned also to like embrace that as well. Some people will never understand what we may face. Philosophy of blindness of why people advocate for themselves, or why people have to be more outspoken about certain subjects or materials in their lives. It’s important for people to know that we’re still human at the end of the day; we still have flaws, we’re still human, and want to be accepted into society norms as best as we can in a world that was not meant for anyone with disabilities.

Justice: I hope that one day we don’t even talk about acceptance anymore.

Miguel: Yeah.

Justice: Because, acceptance is more or less like a give and take of power. So, I hope one day that I don’t need to seek validation. I don’t need to seek permission to be who I am, as a blind individual in any society. Just imagine if world is originally built by blind people; how accessible it will be to those blind people and may not be access accessible to other individuals. But, the point is that it is a work in progress, and I want to appreciate some tech industries that have been really, really, really working hard because you talked about social media.

Miguel: Yeah.

Justice: Working hard to make the social media accessible for blind people. Apple products, apple companies, they have been very, very great in helping and making sure that they update their softwares and make everything very accessible for blind people, as far as content creation is concerned. They also have a 24/7 apple line for individuals with disabilities to ask questions and seek technical assistance. So, why I mentioned Apple is because I use it and I want to give them their flowers and also want to challenge other tech industries, in case they are not doing what Apple is doing. They should please take some cues from Apple and make their technology very accessible. Because blind people have a lot of stories. They have a lot of inspiration to share, but without accessible media they will go down the grave with their stories. So, effort has to be increasingly made to make the social media very accessible for blind people. Not just blind people, but ’cause we’re talking about blindness today. That way awareness creation would increase, people will know that these individuals with blindness, or low vision, or vision loss, as a case maybe, are actually human beings. “Oh, we didn’t believe that they could do this!” Like in my videos; sometimes people don’t believe that we could cook, we could make food. Sometimes people don’t even believe that blind people could take their showers without coming out with soap, or whatever, on their skin. People don’t believe that blind people could, speak to the mirror, without necessarily seeing themselves.

Miguel: I do that all the time.

Justice: Yeah. So, there is a lot of elementary things, very basic that people don’t believe that blind persons could do. People don’t believe that blind persons could even step their feet, like take a step forward. without someone to support them. Sometimes I would be asked some funny questions; maybe when I want to use the stair. People ask me, are you able to use the stairs, or do you need an elevator? That’s a good question, a genuine question, right? But, it sounds so funny, because I would imagine, what do you think I am? And sometimes I would jokingly tell them, “Hey, I’m just blind.” My blindness doesn’t affect my movement, doesn’t affect my mobility. So, if you are asking the question because you realize I’m blind, then you are wrong. But, if you’re asking the question on the basis of you could ask any other person because you don’t know if they have mobility challenge or challenges, then you are Right. So, it all depends on awareness and how people have appreciated blindness and acknowledge that blindness isn’t just the end of the road.

Miguel: Also it’s really good to say as well that some people are okay with them being asked questions. I tell people all the time that for me, oh, I don’t mind sharing specific things. But I also tell them that , “hey, we’re also people”, and you may run into someone else that may not want to share that experience or may not be comfortable with their blindness to share about their lives and that’s okay. Because, we all have unique, different experiences and the ability to want or may not wanna share our stories. We were talking about social being out there, but what social aspects, could be changed regarding blind culture?

Justice: Well, there are quite a number of them, but I can just maybe highlight very few. One is, seeing blind people the way they are, and seeing them as a normal human being. Do not approach them with PD, simply because they’re blind. Understanding that blindness has moved beyond medical, but it is something that even some people aspire to be. Because I have owned and honed my blindness. The mere fact that blind people were used to being led, literally speaking, right? So, they’re being held by the hand and without being directed by individuals, they wouldn’t walk or travel. That era is gone, right? People should not take that and translate to the social constructs, that we are currently building in our modern world. So, you led me, you helped me, you directed me to where I was going doesn’t mean that you would also direct me in the office or that I cannot work in the office. I mean, I had argued that these guys who’s stole my answers in exam. They passed the exams because of my answers, and now when I applied for job, they applied for job; they would be the first to be hired? How does that make sense? I mean, you stole my answers. You applied for a job with my stolen answers, and you got the job. But, me that had the answer, I applied for the same job and I didn’t get it. It doesn’t make sense. So, hires or employers should be thinking out of the box. Realizing that a blind person can be a leader. It doesn’t take your physical eyes unless you’re working in the military. And I’m sure that one day there may be a time that you could be blind and you’d be in the military, So, that’s another thing. So, I talked about not using PD on, on blind people, and talk about allowing blind people to take leadership positions, because they deserve it. Then another thing is, understanding that blind persons are normal human beings, that could make mistakes. That could also commit crime. Because, sometimes, people see blind people as angels, people that were never seen, or do not have the propensity of doing wrong. And that’s why they are very, very shocked when they hear that a blind person has committed something. They feel very disappointed, or, ” this is not what I expected of a blind person. My question will be, why? What makes this blind person different? He is just blind. Being blind doesn’t mean that he’s not gonna behave as humans. So, it’s important to also highlight that part, like, blind person can make mistakes, blind persons can be accountable. Blind persons could be rewarded again for their work. When you are rewarding a blind person for their work don’t reward them and link the reward to their blindness. Again, because they’re human beings. They work. You could, for sentimental reasons, I would say, reward them. But, the truth is that not every blind person would tolerate that. Not every blind person would accept that. So, they want to be treated equally, but at the same time, there is a need to apply equity in promoting inclusion, and that is what we always preach. You know, inclusion is the goal, and there is no way equality can achieve that goal. So, equity is important, but do that with respect.

Miguel: Yeah, equity and inclusion are definitely two aspects of my life as well, that I take, really close to heart regarding employment and in those realms. I was thinking, I know perceptions of people are different because of what they see in the movie or like what they see in the media. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think blindness, of perception in the media kind of has to do with a little bit of how people are treated? Sometimes? Like, for example, people will see me outside and they’re like, “oh, why aren’t you wearing sunglasses?”. Or like, ” are all blind people good at, you know, musical instruments?” And I’m like, “not all of us. Some of us, we may be musically talented, but we’re not Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder.” what are, what are your thoughts, Justice?

Justice: I think it is, in my opinion, at this time, what I can say is; it is primarily the job of blind people to change the narrative and be proactive in doing that. So, what I would do personally is sometimes I sit down to reflect.

Miguel: Yeah.

Justice: I reflect, on my blindness and my journey and also reflect on feedback. From individuals, and that helps me to be very proactive in doing certain things. So, sometimes in my videos, I could just do my video without my glasses, and I know that I have a beautiful set of eyes. I don’t brag about it. People have told me that, but I also acknowledge that not all eyes are the same. Some people may not sees as beautiful, and due to that unique eye condition. But. Then I would encourage that you hone it, own it, whatever, however. Because, sometimes people wear their glasses because they’re shy. They don’t want their eyes to be seen, or they don’t look too good. No, no. Nobody defines how you look. You have to define it yourself. Yes. Sometimes I’ll tell people in my videos, “I am blind. So, what?”. Like, so what? Sometimes I will go as far as using my Nigerian, I would say “now blind. I blind. I know. Keep.”, what does that mean? “I am simply blind. I didn’t commit murder.” Blindness doesn’t mean that I’m a criminal. So, leave me alone. Just leave me with my kids. Let me enjoy my day. Enough of, being allowed to fit into the box. Nobody has a right to pin me in a box. Nobody has that right. So, what I’ve been doing all through my life is to assess, and discover those boxes that society has historically put people in, and see if they are reasonable or not. The unreasonable ones. I push them, I break them. Break those boxes, right? But, I think, like I said, it is primarily the work of blind people, especially some of us that have more access to technology, more access to education, more access to, networking. It is our responsibility to be who we are and preach it, you know. Tell people we don’t even have to expect people to ask, you know.

Miguel: Yeah. Having your mental spaces is something that’s important.

Justice: Not just having it, but grabbing it.

Discussing Life Skills

Miguel: What are some life skills people with blindness should learn?

Justice: I don’t know. I think everything is open for everybody. At least, I’ve read that we have blind medical doctors, we have blind nurses. Of course there some skills might be more challenging than the others. Some skills are still very stereotypically excluded or exclusive. I mean, in a modern world, speaking from my own background; I am in the media and I love to speak to the camera. So, anyone who love to speak to the camera should also learn and keep practicing how to present themselves, and in doing that, of course, you have to look clean. Looking clean doesn’t mean that you are not blind anymore. Because we are in a competitive world. So, you have to dress properly the way you wanna present yourself. The way you wanna present your message. If you wanna be real, if you wanna be natural, if you want to do some makeups. Just know that you are in the market selling your products. So, if we are saying, that we need to be accepted, that’s we are able to the task, we can do it, then prove it and show it, right? So, maybe in Amazon or anywhere where blind people could learn your own skills. Sometimes you take time and practice certain things by yourself. Have your own unique way of doing things. The most important thing is that something is done. A goal is achieved. It doesn’t matter most of the time how you achieve it, but you have to know your own strengths and how to harness them. So, those are some skills; sometimes even speaking skill, being a public speaker, being able to speak and speak to the hearts of your audiences. Knowing how to use your voice to convince people. Some are into music or they have passion for music. How do you make your music career outstanding? I think politics could be also a career and a skill. Because I believe when you talk about skills, you may be referring not just to skills per se, but to career. So, on that note, those are the things that, blind people should be doing to break the James. Get out of the blindness box or out of the box in general. Yeah, so there’s quite a number of skills. You could go to the Oregon Commission for the Blind. They would help, they would recommend skills that you may need, at least to gain access to get your foot in the door of the society. Then when you are there in the society, you explore. and have your own niche. So, those are the things that I would say right now at the top of my head.

Miguel: Yeah, all those skills are important to anyone that deals with blindness recording. If you’re young or if you’re older, going into blindness or have already dealt with blindness, all your life. It’s also important to know that it’s okay to make those mistakes. But, learning from them and maybe, asking for feedback or, the ability to not just learn, but understand that if one way doesn’t work to complete a task it’s okay if it takes too much longer. It’s okay If there is other ways to complete that specific, skill that you wanna learn. As you know, in the blind society there is many people, in general, maybe scared or have whatever excuse they may need, for not completing a task or learning a new skill or whatever that their problem may be. But, it’s important to know that shouldn’t stop you from like achieving anything you want to do. I think when people have grit, fight, and are willing to do whatever it takes to break those molds, and not let those things stop them; I believe, wholeheartedly, that that’s the way that we can all learn and be better people. You bring up a great point about, marketing and branding and how you present yourself to other people with confidence and to be able to stand on your own feet, and know that like what you believe for, what you care for, and all your identity it all comes together and learning that those skills are learned. But, we also change as humans throughout the years. I had a professor tell me one time, that as students, and as students of life, that we should always be changing and we will not be our same selves from a year ago or other perspectives of that way. Because we all learn and manage to adapt to new circumstances. I also, moved into Oregon by myself without knowing a lot of new people here. So, one of the things that I had to learn quite young was to advocate for myself and to be an advocate for others. In today’s society, learning to not just embrace blindness as an identity, but we also, as a society, need to hold ourselves accountable for anything that we may have to change. If it’s educational wise or you want more access to books or materials. Like we need to reach out to those vendors and have those conversations with people, but learn how to use the correct words, use the correct terminology to make those conversations and have the openness of being; if I can figure out a certain way, then it works for me, and that’s it. And that’s great and all for those people. But, for anyone that you know, wants to be like; “Hey, I wanna change this and have those conversations with other people” and be a change maker, it takes work. It takes grit and it definitely takes change. And change does not come, quickly. I know in today’s society with technology, we have so much that can definitely help us learn and grow from any type of topic. We could definitely, Google them up and I love to expand myself and challenge myself to be a better person each day. My final question for you is, what myth should be broken of blindness in the employment field? I know a lot of people have like different perspectives or ideas, but what are your thoughts?

Justice: I think just like what we’ve been saying on this. The myth that a blind person cannot perform That should be broken. Blind persons have proven over time that they can perform. The myth that’s supporting a blind person to perform requires too much commitment and money and blah, blah, blah, that should be broken. Because the society was originally structured against blind people, and for blind persons to fit in there must be an adjustment, and that adjustment may cost anything. So, imagine a world originally designed by blind people. People who are not blind may also be having similar complaint. So, it is to me, unfair to think that because company A is spending on blah, blah, blah, for accommodating a blind person to do their job. They can take it. No, that’s not fair. So, I think it’s an opportunity for me to make this advocacy very clear. The society really, really wants to be better. if everybody really wants to make the world a better place, there is a need to make an adjustment. An adjustment may cost fortunes, may cost money, may cost time. So, one is that a blind person cannot do it. That is not true. And, two, that a blind person, it takes a lot to keep a blind person, that is not true. I mean, the society actually should even apologize to blind people for being structured in a way to exclude them over the years, and now that they are working hard to include them, they should do that with empathy and respect. Blind people, as well, should not relax or feel that they are entitled, or feel that they are in charge, or feel that they’re not well received or treated the way they would want. But, instead they should work and walk with the society to make the work better.

Miguel: Yeah, bringing awareness on both ends something that’s definitely needed. And, being open with your coworkers is Something that I personally have learned over the years. My experience with employment, i’ve been very grateful and super honored to been able to have multiple roles in different aspects. One of the lessons that I’ve learned from each different place or each time I’ve gotten to work with a new organization, or whatever it may be, is having that teamwork and willingness to have an open conversation. As a blind person myself, with the employer, having a candid and open conversation about like what you may need to be successful, being sure about your skillset, being sure about who you are as an employee, and what you bring to the table, or important skills to have . I’ve had dealt with this myself too. Being insecure of like, I don’t know if I can complete this job because of whatever reason or have doubts and that’s okay. Having doubts is not a bad thing. But, I learned throughout the years that when I’ve given 110% and fought not in a way that like I feel entitled in any way. Because I don’t feel myself as entitled to anything. When you work for something hard and get the opportunity, knowing where you come from and knowing what you value as an employee and in yourself, and be able to be teachable. Did you have any thoughts on some of what I’ve shared?

Justice: Yeah. I think, knowing your value still goes back to knowing who you are, and knowing what you are able to bring to the table. Knowing that blindness is a different lens. Doesn’t mean that the lens is dark. People as a case, maybe have their own lens from which they see things. Then blindness is also a different lens. So, if you are able to acknowledge that and be willing to prove that, to show that, then you’re bringing a very great value to a team. I don’t know much about job seekers who are blind, but I would imagine that, a reasonable blind person would like to not prove that they’re blind, but show that they can do the job and they can do it in a different way. So, when I do write my cover letter sometimes I say, “despite being blind, I was able to triumph”, or “did you know I did blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.”. That way I am saying that, “hey, my blindness is a strength and not a weakness.”. So, it depends, I think every blind person should have some marketing skills. How to present themselves and sell their products because blindness to me is a product that I’m selling to the world now and people are buying into it. In my videos, my social media, I sell blindness as a product and I notice sometimes millions will buy my products. So, we need that marketing skills. Let’s sell our products, and the world would feel inspired, targeting into what we have.

Closing Thoughts

Miguel: Any thoughts you have for listeners?

Justice: So, it’s my listeners. It was such a pleasure making this podcast with Miguel. Miguel has been my friend. We didn’t introduce ourselves that way, but I’ve known him and I’ll be very happy to keep learning more about him. I’ll be very happy again, in case you see me on the way. My name is Justice Tupu; if you see anyone whose name is Justice that speaks like me, just stop and say hi to me. Okay. Even if I’m walking on the streets. Let’s keep the ball rolling and hopefully we’ll get there. We’ll break all access barriers and make our society a better place.

Miguel: Yeah! I love it, Justice! I love that you bring that up of breaking the access barriers in society. ‘Cause, it’s something that has to be done in order for us to move forward with all our goals or dreams or aspirations. Thank you again for, coming onto the interview today and allowing me to chat with you and learn more about your experiences and your thoughts about philosophy of blindness, your perceptions, how it has changed, and what we need to do as a society to become better advocates for ourselves and others. I really enjoyed this opportunity and it was a great experience for me. To our listeners, thank you guys for listening. Make sure to follow us and have a great day everyone.

Podcast Outro

Michelle: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk Ä¢¹½´«Ã½’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk Podcast collective as a collaborative effort between students, the accessible education and disability resources department and the Ä¢¹½´«Ã½ multimedia department. We air new episodes on our home website. Our Spotify Channel, X-RAY 91.1 FM and 107.1 FM, and KBOO Radio, 90.7 fm.